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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 348 for the 21st of jun

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2015 Richard Saunders here with you from

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a cold wet damp soggy moist drizzly

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rainy wet Sydney Australia now before we

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get into this week's show before I tell

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you what's coming up today I had the

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great pleasure spending some time with

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some skeptics more about this next week

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a lot more about this next week when we

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went to the freedom of choice no jab no

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pay no way protest rally much debacle

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here in Sydney Australia the steps the

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steps of the town hall where a group of

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some people gathered to win wine rally

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against the government plan to stop

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welfare payments to people who won't

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vaccinate their children certain

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payments that is and he is a little

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teaser about what's coming up next week

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when we cover this this protest this

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would this was a recording of people

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marching down one of the main streets in

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No

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Oh

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yeah there just wasn't that many of them

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now they were protests held in most

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capitals I think around Australia but if

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the Sydney one was anything to go by I

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am glad they had them because not only

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was there a very poor turnout in Sydney

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and from what I gather elsewhere around

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the country I think it gets back to what

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somebody once said recently about

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homeopathy the best thing well the worst

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thing that can happen to homeopathy is

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if people understood what it's all about

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in that sense the worst thing that can

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happen to the anti-vaccine public and at

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rallies because the drivel folks the

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nonsense the boulder dash that comes out

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when they talk they really are their own

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worst enemies and I understand there's a

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lot of infighting amongst the anti vac

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the moment next week I'm going to have a

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report from the day today from the rally

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I was there with some other people as I

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said before and we'll have some reports

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from other places around Australia oh

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dear those anti-vaxxers but let's talk

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about this week's episode of the skeptic

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zone we're going to kick off with a

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report from Heidi Robertson The Roar

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skeptic report Heidi inspired by the

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recent trip that I made with some other

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skeptics to mind/body wallet a few weeks

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ago dug through her archives and found

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some more information from mind/body

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wallet up in Brisbane she's going to be

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relating to you one of the more

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outrageous claims she heard on the day

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that's the Ross captain report with

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Haley Robinson after that it's a week

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and science from the Royal Institution

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of Australia WWII a u.s. dog today you

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thank you once again royal institution

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of Australia for your excellent little

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report every week and then to round off

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the show it's my interview with

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Michael Marshall my old friend Michael

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Marshall from Liverpool from the good

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thinking society and they do some pretty

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good thinking oh boy do they do some

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good thinking not only do they do good

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thinking they do some pretty good

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skeptical activism in general the good

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thinking society what a worthwhile

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endeavor it is find out what they've

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been up to some of their investigations

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and some of the action they are taking

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coming up later on in the show but

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that's all for me at the moment I'm

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going to run downstairs open the fridge

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now it's too cold to open the fridge

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today it's actually it's a bit cold i'm

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going to open the oven what can i find

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in the oven maybe a nice lasagna whoo a

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vegetarian lasagna I think I'm in the

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mood for why not yeah yeah bit of chili

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sauce on it cuz I like to put chili

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sauce on just about everything I think

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well I'm munching away on my lasagna on

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this cold day I hope you enjoy the

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it's the raw skeptic report with Heidi

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Robertson hi everyone hearing richard

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Joe and Iran's report three weeks ago on

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the mind-body-spirit festival they

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attended in Sydney reminded me that I

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still have a large collection of

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material I gathered at the Brisbane mind

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body spirit in March of this year I got

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it out the other day and searched for

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the flyer that had particularly piqued

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my curiosity for its extraordinary

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claims but even more so the

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improbability of the device being

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advertised I think I can confidently say

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that I've never come across anything

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quite like this before as far as

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examples of where prior plausibility

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must come into play this is not only a

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good example this example takes the cake

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and the whole bakery with it so here we

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have it it's called bio resonance

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therapy I had about a 10 to 15 minute

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chat with the lady at this stall who I

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shall call Doris who was very friendly

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and open to my questions and it soon

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became evident that she is a true

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believer in this therapy I say that as

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opposed to a quack just out to make

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money knowing full well what they are

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spruiking is a scam she was definitely

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not one of those so Doris at least in my

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view is a victim albeit a victim who is

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now perpetuating the womb on a

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vulnerable public but I won't pick on

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her in particular by naming her as there

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are over 90 other practitioners in

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Australia and according to some websites

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13,000 devices in use worldwide so what

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is it who is

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behind the marketing of it how do they

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describe its workings and is there any

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evidence to support their claims the

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beginnings of bio residents therapy

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started with an acupuncturist in the

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1950s and the first machine was

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developed by a dr. France Morell a

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German physician in the 60s Morel was

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also allegedly a Scientologist which is

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interesting because what drew me to this

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stall at the mind-body-spirit was this

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machine that I thought looked remarkably

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similar to the a meter auditing

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contraption that scientologists use and

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yes as Scientology stand complete with a

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meter was also at a store nearby there

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have been many and varied models of bio

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residents machines over the years this

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particular company i'm looking at

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manufacturers their bio calm 2000 there

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is the german manufacturer of this brand

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and the australian distributor although

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presumably there are distributors

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worldwide the ailments claimed to be

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helped by a bioresonance therapy are as

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with many alternative therapies pretty

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much all encompassing enough weasel

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words have been used that one could

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argue that they are not claims at all

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but the insinuation in my opinion is

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clear doris mentions the following on

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her website and in her marketing

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material allergies anxiety stress

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chronic fatigue digestive complaints

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sinus hay fever candida migraine viruses

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parasites urinary tract infections

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radiation skin conditions heavy metal

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toxicity chemical sensitivities paying

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scars hormonal imbalances adda ADHD

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addictions emotional issues phobias

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self-esteem relationship issues and

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quitting smoking I'll get to the

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disclaimers later first I'll relate how

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this therapy is supposed to work the

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treatment is as follows the patient lies

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down comfortably on a treatment table

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with a modulation mat underneath them

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the practitioner applies an electrode to

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the patient's body the electrode is

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connected to the machine via a cable the

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following is directly from the

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australian distributors website just

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keep in mind that Andrew bury the

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distributor States he has a Bachelor of

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Science in chemistry and a PhD in atomic

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physics quote all substances emit a

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specific electromagnetic wave each with

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its own individual characteristics this

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is known as a frequency pattern the bike

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on device uses these frequency patterns

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taken either from the body or from

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substances that are stressing the body

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the by calm separates these waves into

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harmonious and dis harmonious components

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the healthy waves can be boosted and

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sent back to the body to strengthen

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normal functions while the unhealthy

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waves are inverted or turned upside down

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by an electronic mirror circuit before

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returning them to the body to reduce

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their negative effects with each

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treatment information from the body or

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substances is altered and sent back to

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the patient via a large electromagnetic

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therapy mat end quote they then give a

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couple of examples example one quote the

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patient presents with a runny nose and

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cough first we collect body secretions

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in this case mucus we use this sample as

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well as an electrode on the throat to

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input information into the bike on

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device the bike on detects this

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energetic information and then use its

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its internal filters to separate their

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healthy and unhealthy frequencies after

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amplifying the healthy frequencies and

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canceling out the unhealthy ones the

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signal is then returned to the body and

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quote let me clarify the patient's mucus

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is put into a beaker and subsequently

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the machine reads the

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frequency of the mucus boosting the good

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frequencies and eliminating the bad

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frequencies extraordinary claim example

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to quote the patient presents with an

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allergic response to a food additive in

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this example we are dealing with a toxin

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unlike the previous example there is no

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healthy aspect to this substance so a

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vial containing the food additive will

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be used as the input the frequency

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pattern of the additive is passed

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through a filter which then inverts it

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this new frequency is then sent back to

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the body this cancels the effect of the

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toxin on the patient and quote I'm sorry

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but having treated patients myself

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suffering the most severe form of

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allergy life-threatening anaphylaxis

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it's downright irresponsible if they are

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claiming to diagnose or treat allergies

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if a patient thinks they have been cured

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of their life threatening allergy what's

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to say they will not expose themselves

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to the allergen once more in order to

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test it out it gets better there is also

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a different model of the by com 2000

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called the Optima quote practitioners

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with a knowledge of homeopathy can use

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the Optima 2 / 10 ties substances in the

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range d 32 d 1000 a substance is placed

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into the input beaker and the signal is

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transmitted to a violin the output

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beaker containing a suitable storage

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medium the output may also be

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transmitted directly to the patient

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using the modulation mat and can also be

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stored inside a by calm chip the chip

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storage device is used to store the

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treatment signal inside a stainless

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steel chip it can then be attached to

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the body to allow for additional

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treatment after the initial therapy

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session is over end quote now for the

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disclaimers perhaps if you are so

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inclined Google by our resonance therapy

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find a practitioner near you and see if

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they have similar

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disclaimers in place so it seems that in

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alternative medicine if you are

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forbidden from making specific health

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claims the next best thing is gathering

276
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:24,400
a large volume of glowing testimonials

277
00:14:30,390 --> 00:14:26,910
to make the claims for you aka

278
00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:30,400
Australian chef paleo Pete Evans style

279
00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:34,630
this from the german website quote you

280
00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:36,640
will no doubt be interested in finding

281
00:14:42,330 --> 00:14:38,980
out which illnesses bike on bioresonance

282
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:42,340
therapy is able to treat unfortunately

283
00:14:46,590 --> 00:14:44,530
we cannot provide this information here

284
00:14:48,330 --> 00:14:46,600
since the law on advertising in the

285
00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:48,340
health care system in germany will not

286
00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:51,550
allow us to do so however we would be

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happy to give you the names of by comp

288
00:14:59,100 --> 00:14:55,960
therapists who you can contact with your

289
00:15:00,360 --> 00:14:59,110
queries end quote the information

290
00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:00,370
brochure from the australian

291
00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:02,080
distributors website contains the

292
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:05,140
following disclaimer quote just like

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homeopathy acupuncture and other methods

294
00:15:12,750 --> 00:15:10,480
of complementary therapy by cone

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00:15:15,810 --> 00:15:12,760
bioresonance is a form of regulatory

296
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medicine within complementary medicine

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00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:17,980
by con bioresonance therapy is

298
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recognized as an effective

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tried-and-tested method in Orthodox

300
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:25,690
medicine however by conveyor residents

301
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:27,910
has not been subject to scientific

302
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:30,310
research and is therefore not yet

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00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:33,370
approved all claims made regarding

304
00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:36,460
effects properties and indications are

305
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:38,830
based on findings and empirical values

306
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:41,290
from bike on bio residents therapy

307
00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:46,570
itself end quote there is a downloadable

308
00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:48,940
section on that website at bike on

309
00:15:54,660 --> 00:15:52,060
australia comte you that contains

310
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:54,670
apparent scientific evidence of the

311
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:57,730
efficacy of the therapy I'll leave it up

312
00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:00,160
to you to determine the veracity of

313
00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:04,540
those studies Doris has also placed a

314
00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:07,600
disclaimer on her website quote when we

315
00:16:12,750 --> 00:16:09,700
answer your questions we only provide

316
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:12,760
information we do not diagnose disease

317
00:16:18,810 --> 00:16:15,760
nor do we prescribe anything or advise

318
00:16:20,940 --> 00:16:18,820
you to give up existing medications this

319
00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:20,950
is a decision to be made only by your

320
00:16:25,319 --> 00:16:24,070
self and doctor if you act on any

321
00:16:27,479 --> 00:16:25,329
information we

322
00:16:30,059 --> 00:16:27,489
I'd without your doctor's approval you

323
00:16:31,949 --> 00:16:30,069
are prescribing yourself that is your

324
00:16:35,129 --> 00:16:31,959
right to do so but we take no

325
00:16:39,239 --> 00:16:35,139
responsibility or liability for your

326
00:16:40,979 --> 00:16:39,249
actions end quote during my talk with

327
00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:40,989
Doris I remarked how passionate she

328
00:16:45,449 --> 00:16:43,540
appeared to be about the therapy she

329
00:16:47,460 --> 00:16:45,459
told me that she had outlaid forty

330
00:16:49,889 --> 00:16:47,470
thousand dollars for two of these

331
00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:49,899
machines in order to start up her own

332
00:16:55,439 --> 00:16:52,540
business looking online I see the

333
00:16:58,229 --> 00:16:55,449
Australian distributor charges 2040

334
00:17:00,539 --> 00:16:58,239
dollars for a 6 day course enabling

335
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:00,549
someone with no prior medical experience

336
00:17:06,090 --> 00:17:03,610
to set up shop and claim but not claim

337
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:06,100
to treat the above wide variety of

338
00:17:12,329 --> 00:17:08,799
ailments the Optima machine models

339
00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:12,339
ranging price from 26,000 to thirty-one

340
00:17:19,049 --> 00:17:16,600
thousand dollars each of course there

341
00:17:21,419 --> 00:17:19,059
are ongoing costs once one has brought

342
00:17:24,509 --> 00:17:21,429
the machine vials of homeopathic

343
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:24,519
substances from Germany for example that

344
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:27,329
are used in conjunction with the machine

345
00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:29,919
considering the considerable startup

346
00:17:34,110 --> 00:17:32,289
costs it's not surprising that Doris

347
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:34,120
charges two hundred and forty dollars

348
00:17:39,649 --> 00:17:37,450
for the initial to our consultation she

349
00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:39,659
also sells products on her website

350
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:42,760
including supplements pain relief and

351
00:17:48,330 --> 00:17:45,370
detoxing in the form of power strips

352
00:17:51,659 --> 00:17:48,340
which could be a whole other skeptics

353
00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:51,669
own report in itself and various methods

354
00:17:58,529 --> 00:17:56,620
of EMF and radiation protection so apart

355
00:18:01,019 --> 00:17:58,539
from making one's wallet decidedly

356
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:01,029
lighter what's the harm as they say an

357
00:18:05,399 --> 00:18:03,970
adult has bodily autonomy and a right to

358
00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:05,409
choose their own medical treatment

359
00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:08,559
here's an example of one such real-life

360
00:18:13,409 --> 00:18:10,600
case which has made all the more tragic

361
00:18:16,919 --> 00:18:13,419
because it was not an adult with their

362
00:18:19,169 --> 00:18:16,929
own bodily autonomy it was an 18 day old

363
00:18:22,710 --> 00:18:19,179
baby whose parents made the wrong

364
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:22,720
decision as a result of this specific

365
00:18:27,629 --> 00:18:25,840
brand of pseudoscience I'm now going to

366
00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:27,639
quote an article from the Society for

367
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:30,100
science-based medicine by dr. Steven

368
00:18:35,789 --> 00:18:33,490
Barrett it describes how a bio residence

369
00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:35,799
machine in this case of the a brand

370
00:18:38,790 --> 00:18:38,440
called the Mora machine was used by a

371
00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:38,800
nap

372
00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:43,030
a path on a small baby quote in august

373
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:48,190
2003 Reginald Harold Fenn 74 of Port

374
00:18:52,860 --> 00:18:50,650
Stephens Australia was found guilty of

375
00:18:55,380 --> 00:18:52,870
manslaughter in connection with the

376
00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:55,390
death of 18 day old Mitchell James

377
00:19:01,860 --> 00:18:58,330
little who was born with aortic stenosis

378
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:01,870
a structural heart defect that surgery

379
00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:04,930
can repair during a nine-day trial

380
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:07,780
witnesses testified that fen had treated

381
00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:11,410
the baby in 1999 with her ball drops and

382
00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:14,470
a more a machine and declared that he

383
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:17,260
was cured he recommended that parents

384
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:19,690
Michael and Elizabeth little not allow

385
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:22,690
their baby to undergo surgery mr. and

386
00:19:27,090 --> 00:19:24,400
mrs. little then canceled an appointment

387
00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:27,100
at Westmead Hospital where Mitchell was

388
00:19:31,620 --> 00:19:29,500
to be evaluated for an operation to

389
00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:31,630
repair or replace the narrowed aortic

390
00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:33,940
valve that was putting pressure on his

391
00:19:38,730 --> 00:19:36,940
enlarged and overworked heart the

392
00:19:41,250 --> 00:19:38,740
appointment was rescheduled after

393
00:19:43,530 --> 00:19:41,260
doctors intervened but Mitchell died of

394
00:19:46,650 --> 00:19:43,540
heart failure before an operation could

395
00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:46,660
be carried out Elizabeth little

396
00:19:50,610 --> 00:19:48,940
testified that Finn had put two metal

397
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:50,620
cylinders on the baby's legs and

398
00:19:56,820 --> 00:19:54,310
attached them to a machine she also said

399
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:56,830
fen told them it would supply energy to

400
00:20:01,470 --> 00:19:58,960
the body and cure Mitchell's heart

401
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:01,480
problem and that he had cured hundreds

402
00:20:09,870 --> 00:20:05,890
with a similar condition end quote in

403
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:09,880
February of 2004 Fenn was sentenced to

404
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:12,640
five years jail but the judge suspended

405
00:20:19,050 --> 00:20:15,760
the sentence due to fence terminal skull

406
00:20:23,310 --> 00:20:19,060
cancer which apparently was not able to

407
00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:23,320
be cured by bioresonance therapy that's

408
00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:26,670
all from me this time you can find me at

409
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:31,420
nrvs dot info as well as at the twitter

410
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:35,530
handle in our vac supportive

411
00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:48,010
that's vix thank you the skeptic

412
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:50,140
magazine the journal from Australian

413
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:53,110
skeptics subscribe online to the world's

414
00:21:00,170 --> 00:20:56,530
second oldest skeptical magazine visit w

415
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:00,180
WC apx com au and click the

416
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:03,280
publication's league you can also find

417
00:21:10,770 --> 00:21:07,690
their over 30 years on back issues free

418
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:10,780
to download the skeptic magazine from

419
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:21,040
Australian skeptics on Maynard com au

420
00:21:26,130 --> 00:21:23,410
coming up in this episode of bunga bunga

421
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:26,140
15 Tim comes clean and apologizes for

422
00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:32,650
his behavior should cats unionize we

423
00:21:36,260 --> 00:21:34,180
visit backstage with a dog Anthony all

424
00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:36,270
stars and their audience at any point

425
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:39,460
any three these guys could go down and a

426
00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:44,950
touch of Shirley Bassey a touch just a

427
00:22:02,430 --> 00:21:47,140
touch maybe a stroke of her cheek on

428
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:02,440
Manor condo you hey you welcome to a

429
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:04,930
week in science from our iOS bringing

430
00:22:08,910 --> 00:22:07,270
you the science you need to know ever

431
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:08,920
wanted to take a stroll on the surface

432
00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:10,720
of Mars may be analyzed some rock

433
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:12,280
formations well thanks to a

434
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:14,410
collaboration between NASA and Microsoft

435
00:22:24,370 --> 00:22:16,090
scientists are getting the chance to do

436
00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:26,810
although it's about 55 million

437
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:29,400
kilometers away at best and times as far

438
00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:32,190
as 400 million kilometers away thanks to

439
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:34,200
virtual reality the surface of Mars has

440
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:36,000
never been closer as long as you've got

441
00:22:40,550 --> 00:22:38,100
the right accessories strapon a

442
00:22:42,290 --> 00:22:40,560
microsoft hololens headset and fire up

443
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:42,300
their on-site software and you'll be

444
00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:44,910
transported to another world using data

445
00:22:48,260 --> 00:22:46,950
from the Curiosity rover the virtual

446
00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:48,270
reality system creates a

447
00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:50,340
three-dimensional explorable planetary

448
00:22:55,670 --> 00:22:53,190
surface scientists can behave just like

449
00:22:57,170 --> 00:22:55,680
geologists to here on earth walking

450
00:22:59,240 --> 00:22:57,180
around an object to get a better view

451
00:23:01,340 --> 00:22:59,250
crouching down to inspect it from a new

452
00:23:03,230 --> 00:23:01,350
angle and understanding the spatial

453
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:03,240
relationships between objects in a more

454
00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:07,770
natural human way researchers can also

455
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:09,300
do things like target an object by

456
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:10,650
looking at it and use gesture-based

457
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:13,170
menus to program the rover the

458
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:14,880
technology can bring together scientists

459
00:23:18,830 --> 00:23:17,490
from all over the world researchers from

460
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:18,840
different countries can both wear

461
00:23:22,430 --> 00:23:20,610
headsets and access the same mars

462
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:22,440
surface program communicating directly

463
00:23:27,260 --> 00:23:25,200
through the system NASA's next steps for

464
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:27,270
exploring Mars are to send an orbiter in

465
00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:29,970
2016 participate in the European Space

466
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:32,820
Agency's rover mission in 2018 and send

467
00:23:40,250 --> 00:23:36,000
that iron Rover in 2020 and now for fast

468
00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:40,260
facts about the red planet Mars is about

469
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:42,660
half the size of Earth but the land area

470
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:44,370
of both planets is about the same

471
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:47,280
depending on planetary positions launch

472
00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:50,490
speed and fuel load it takes between 150

473
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:52,980
and 300 days the spacecraft to travel

474
00:23:58,490 --> 00:23:55,650
from Earth to Mars the first Mars rover

475
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,500
the Pathfinder Surgenor landed in 1997

476
00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:00,720
the spirit and the opportunity arrived

477
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:03,240
in 2004 and curiosity has been

478
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:05,930
patrolling the surface since 2012

479
00:24:10,430 --> 00:24:08,490
curiosity has a tendency to take selfies

480
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:10,440
but relies on its friends back on earth

481
00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:12,450
to digitally remove the extendable arm

482
00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:14,580
that takes the snap that's it for this

483
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:16,830
week in science for more information on

484
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:19,850
exploring Mars go to the rirs website RI

485
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:23,850
aus org dot a you follow us on twitter

486
00:24:28,509 --> 00:24:26,809
at our iOS and like us on facebook

487
00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:28,519
Casey Harrigan and we'll catch you next

488
00:24:47,049 --> 00:24:45,049
week virtual skeptics is a weekly web

489
00:24:49,659 --> 00:24:47,059
show in which we discuss the latest news

490
00:24:51,129 --> 00:24:49,669
in skepticism whether it's a new case of

491
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,139
spontaneous human combustion a

492
00:24:55,570 --> 00:24:53,360
conspiracy theory the latest update on

493
00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:55,580
the upcoming robot apocalypse tech news

494
00:24:59,710 --> 00:24:57,230
for skeptics are the latest wacky

495
00:25:02,109 --> 00:24:59,720
religious claim we cover it all we

496
00:25:04,749 --> 00:25:02,119
record the show live as a Google+ on-air

497
00:25:06,580 --> 00:25:04,759
hang out so join us in our host Brian

498
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:06,590
Gregory for an hour of mostly

499
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:08,690
intelligent talk every wednesday at

500
00:25:14,590 --> 00:25:11,600
eight pm eastern US time watch us at

501
00:25:17,259 --> 00:25:14,600
virtual skeptics calm and participate in

502
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:17,269
the show on our hashtag virtual skeptics

503
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:20,210
the virtual skeptics it's like meet the

504
00:25:36,910 --> 00:25:34,570
joining me now from the good thinking

505
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:36,920
society all the way from Liverpool I

506
00:25:42,010 --> 00:25:39,440
must visit Liverpool one day Michael

507
00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:42,020
Marshall hello Marsh hi Richard hi how

508
00:25:46,540 --> 00:25:44,180
you doing I'm doing fine thanks Marsh

509
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:46,550
but I'm really interested to catch up

510
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:48,080
with you and I love catching up with you

511
00:25:52,090 --> 00:25:49,970
and the good thinking society every now

512
00:25:54,490 --> 00:25:52,100
and then on the skeptic zone because

513
00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:54,500
some very important investigations have

514
00:25:58,540 --> 00:25:56,420
been done by you people which are really

515
00:26:00,240 --> 00:25:58,550
it's it's a beacon for everybody what

516
00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:00,250
can you tell me has been going on lately

517
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:03,380
and this thing the spirit of health has

518
00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:04,880
been brought to my attention what's that

519
00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:07,310
all about yes so we're spirit of health

520
00:26:12,220 --> 00:26:10,220
was this weekend conference that was

521
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:12,230
taking place in Brighton very far down

522
00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:14,930
in the south coast here in the UK and it

523
00:26:19,210 --> 00:26:17,000
was being run by one of the members of

524
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:19,220
the Genesis to church and your listeners

525
00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:21,050
might be familiar with Genesis to their

526
00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:23,870
the the church court and court that was

527
00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:26,150
set up by the archbishop Jim Humble

528
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:28,430
who's the guy who peddles a miracle

529
00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:30,500
mineral solution a sodium chlorite or

530
00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:33,680
industrial bleach to cure literally

531
00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:37,190
everything you know HIV Ebola cancer

532
00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:39,470
everything that's going in the big

533
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:40,630
league thing at the moment is that

534
00:26:46,270 --> 00:26:43,610
acolytes of his are giving this stuff as

535
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:46,280
an enema to autistic children as a cure

536
00:26:51,250 --> 00:26:48,890
for autism because obviously autism is

537
00:26:53,170 --> 00:26:51,260
caused by parasites in the gut ukai

538
00:26:56,770 --> 00:26:53,180
worms you just can't make this stuff up

539
00:26:59,320 --> 00:26:56,780
March this is this is every now then I

540
00:27:01,000 --> 00:26:59,330
have to stop and think I have I heard it

541
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:01,010
all before have I heard everything now I

542
00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:02,510
haven't heard everything here this is

543
00:27:08,020 --> 00:27:05,720
bizarre it is and you know it's it's

544
00:27:10,150 --> 00:27:08,030
it's tragic and all I mean if you think

545
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:10,160
of the experiences these poor children

546
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:11,510
are going through these autistic

547
00:27:14,260 --> 00:27:12,530
children are going through where their

548
00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:14,270
parents are given them bleach enemas and

549
00:27:19,270 --> 00:27:16,910
then the parents are kind of looking

550
00:27:21,310 --> 00:27:19,280
through their stool samples to find

551
00:27:22,810 --> 00:27:21,320
evidence of parasites and they hold a

552
00:27:24,490 --> 00:27:22,820
little things that look like worms and

553
00:27:25,780 --> 00:27:24,500
in fact what that is it's part of the

554
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:25,790
intestinal lining that's being shared

555
00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:28,130
because it's been attacked with Lee so

556
00:27:32,890 --> 00:27:30,350
it's it's incredibly heartbreakingly

557
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:32,900
kind of grotesque as a form of

558
00:27:35,890 --> 00:27:34,010
alternative medicine and of course these

559
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:35,900
parents totally believe it and that

560
00:27:38,820 --> 00:27:37,330
they're just confused

561
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:38,830
they're in a position where they you

562
00:27:44,940 --> 00:27:42,640
know they don't have any answers for why

563
00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:44,950
their children are this way their

564
00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:47,140
children happen to be autistic we don't

565
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:48,340
know about at the moment it's just a

566
00:27:53,340 --> 00:27:50,710
thing that we we know happens whereas on

567
00:27:56,790 --> 00:27:53,350
the other side we have this snake oil

568
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:56,800
salesman aura is a similar who are

569
00:28:01,080 --> 00:27:58,960
making these huge outrageous definitive

570
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:01,090
claims and I can certainly see why it'd

571
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:04,570
be very easy to believe in those those

572
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:07,600
assurances of certainty than to to live

573
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:09,190
in uncertainty which is where we all are

574
00:28:13,410 --> 00:28:11,710
unfortunately but yeah it means that

575
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:13,420
people are doing quite horrible things

576
00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:15,010
with this bleach stuff and so this this

577
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:16,200
conference is being put on by the

578
00:28:21,060 --> 00:28:19,510
purveyors of this stuff and they had a

579
00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:21,070
couple of different speakers all there

580
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:22,840
and what this because was someone that

581
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:24,490
some of your listeners will also be

582
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:25,840
familiar with I imagine because he's a

583
00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:27,910
fellow national of yours that he's a

584
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:29,830
adrian jones she's a natural natural

585
00:28:34,890 --> 00:28:33,130
path all right okay well naturopath

586
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:34,900
meaning that anything they wanted to

587
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:37,810
mean I think yeah essentially so yeah

588
00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:39,850
yeah so we saw that this kind of

589
00:28:43,770 --> 00:28:41,590
conference is taking place and it was

590
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:43,780
literally just after QED I think while

591
00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:45,970
we were at QED and I was up on stage

592
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:47,500
doing what I normally do which is kind

593
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:49,510
of saying to people it's actually not

594
00:28:52,650 --> 00:28:51,520
that hard to get involved in nonsense

595
00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:52,660
that's around you it's actually quite

596
00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:54,670
you end up in strange adventures and fun

597
00:28:59,370 --> 00:28:56,620
places as well as seeing quite harrowing

598
00:29:01,140 --> 00:28:59,380
things because I've been saying this a

599
00:29:03,540 --> 00:29:01,150
guy called Tom Bruce from the Brighton

600
00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:03,550
skeptics came up to me and said I live

601
00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:05,350
just by this where this conference is

602
00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:07,420
going to take place and I was thinking

603
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:08,620
of going along and handing out leaflets

604
00:29:12,930 --> 00:29:10,810
or talking to people what should I do

605
00:29:14,430 --> 00:29:12,940
and fortunately the good thinking

606
00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:14,440
society we were able to actually buy Tom

607
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:16,840
a ticket into the event and send him

608
00:29:20,970 --> 00:29:18,250
along there so he went along with his

609
00:29:22,110 --> 00:29:20,980
his phone to see what kind of claims are

610
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:22,120
being made me was actually able to

611
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:24,010
capture undercover footage of some

612
00:29:27,930 --> 00:29:26,530
pretty pretty crazy stuff I mean one of

613
00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:27,940
the things that Adrianne Jones was

614
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:31,540
saying and it just shows how harmful bad

615
00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:33,160
ideas are when they're left unchecked

616
00:29:36,510 --> 00:29:34,660
because it's very easy to say well

617
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:36,520
that's your pathway kind of natural and

618
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:38,710
kind of soft and gentle turn if medicine

619
00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:40,810
never do you know the nice tease and

620
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:43,180
nice smells but actually when you leave

621
00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:44,710
it unchecked they go to quite extreme

622
00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:46,360
places and one of things agent Jones was

623
00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:48,840
talking about was using black salv which

624
00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:54,200
hugely kind of corrosive zinc filled a

625
00:29:58,460 --> 00:29:56,190
salvo each bite on your skin when you

626
00:30:00,200 --> 00:29:58,470
have cancer and it apparently draws the

627
00:30:01,610 --> 00:30:00,210
cancer out well actually what it's doing

628
00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:01,620
is its kind of burning your skin and

629
00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:04,020
just leaving gaping holes in your skin

630
00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:07,830
it's a really really bad idea that is an

631
00:30:12,350 --> 00:30:09,990
awful substance and we've seen horrible

632
00:30:15,289 --> 00:30:12,360
examples of what it can do certainly

633
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:15,299
I've seen some very disturbing images it

634
00:30:19,940 --> 00:30:17,760
really it's like an acid on the skin

635
00:30:21,529 --> 00:30:19,950
almost isn't it it really I don't know

636
00:30:24,350 --> 00:30:21,539
if it rots the skin or it eats away the

637
00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:24,360
skin but it's it's bad news yeah it's an

638
00:30:28,010 --> 00:30:25,980
escarole that they say so close to Chris

639
00:30:30,889 --> 00:30:28,020
I can ask you like a kind of action kind

640
00:30:32,570 --> 00:30:30,899
of scam out of your skin and just keep

641
00:30:35,930 --> 00:30:32,580
pulling more and more stuff into that

642
00:30:38,570 --> 00:30:35,940
and I always said to people don't google

643
00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:38,580
for images of black South people always

644
00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:40,020
inevitably do and then say to me I

645
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:41,220
shouldn't have done because it's quiet

646
00:30:45,649 --> 00:30:43,110
it is quite horrible but you can see

647
00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:45,659
imagine it's that bad well actually at

648
00:30:47,899 --> 00:30:46,830
this conference he was saying you know

649
00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:47,909
if you've got this is the only one

650
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:49,140
hundred percent cure for skin cancer

651
00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:51,090
it's guaranteed results all like all

652
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:52,470
those kind of things and he probably uh

653
00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:54,330
Turley believes I think he probably does

654
00:30:58,669 --> 00:30:56,700
but it doesn't make it harmless because

655
00:31:01,610 --> 00:30:58,679
at this conference is a guy in the

656
00:31:03,169 --> 00:31:01,620
audience during a Q&A who says well I've

657
00:31:04,610 --> 00:31:03,179
had throat cancer you could barely hear

658
00:31:06,019 --> 00:31:04,620
the guy speak unfortunately this is

659
00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:06,029
sometimes we were able to kind of

660
00:31:10,669 --> 00:31:08,279
publish but he said well I've had throat

661
00:31:13,159 --> 00:31:10,679
cancer about four or five years ago and

662
00:31:14,750 --> 00:31:13,169
I keep wanting me to go back for

663
00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:14,760
appointments could I have done something

664
00:31:18,740 --> 00:31:16,950
with black South and aging John says to

665
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:18,750
him yes blacks out what you should be

666
00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:20,370
doing is you should be gargling with

667
00:31:24,830 --> 00:31:22,260
black self to cure your throat cancer

668
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:24,840
that would do it which just seems like

669
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:27,510
incredibly bad advice to God was

670
00:31:32,659 --> 00:31:30,450
something that's so corrosive and then

671
00:31:33,950 --> 00:31:32,669
he says the guy that but if you asking

672
00:31:36,110 --> 00:31:33,960
if your throat cancer was a couple of

673
00:31:37,340 --> 00:31:36,120
years ago now you don't need to do

674
00:31:38,659 --> 00:31:37,350
anything more you don't need to go back

675
00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:38,669
if you're supposed to be having

676
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:40,200
appointments you don't need to go back

677
00:31:43,639 --> 00:31:41,370
for a checkup you'd have known within

678
00:31:45,470 --> 00:31:43,649
weeks whether they got it all so here we

679
00:31:46,669 --> 00:31:45,480
are four or five years later the only

680
00:31:49,370 --> 00:31:46,679
reason they want you going back for a

681
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:49,380
check-up is to widen their bank balance

682
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:50,640
is to fill their bank accounts and

683
00:31:54,980 --> 00:31:53,010
nothing more than that which is just

684
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,990
horrible advice for somebody who's in

685
00:31:57,980 --> 00:31:56,399
remission from cancer it's the worst

686
00:32:00,020 --> 00:31:57,990
possible thing you can say is to stop

687
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:00,030
looking for signs that it might have

688
00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:01,530
returned you know the checkups are what

689
00:32:06,020 --> 00:32:02,150
catches

690
00:32:07,550 --> 00:32:06,030
early really recurrences when you're in

691
00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:07,560
remission so to tell people not to go

692
00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:09,150
along that is just phenomenally

693
00:32:12,590 --> 00:32:11,220
dangerous advice it really really is it

694
00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:12,600
really is and you've brought up some

695
00:32:17,150 --> 00:32:14,820
interesting things here in in in this

696
00:32:19,670 --> 00:32:17,160
conversation Martian I just go over them

697
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:19,680
for the benefit of our audience it's the

698
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:22,290
red flags we look for when we're

699
00:32:26,450 --> 00:32:24,210
investigating and you've brought up

700
00:32:28,550 --> 00:32:26,460
three classic red flags the first one is

701
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:28,560
something that cures to claim many

702
00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:31,410
different ailments that's a classic red

703
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:32,940
flag and we see it all the time

704
00:32:36,620 --> 00:32:34,530
especially the mind-body-spirit

705
00:32:40,910 --> 00:32:36,630
festivals where the list of ailments and

706
00:32:42,770 --> 00:32:40,920
conditions in what not it XYZ will cure

707
00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:42,780
is quite astonishing the other one is

708
00:32:47,930 --> 00:32:44,940
that the people peddling these things

709
00:32:52,550 --> 00:32:47,940
are often true believers and they will

710
00:32:54,740 --> 00:32:52,560
be seeking not out of any ill intent but

711
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:54,750
out of the their firm belief in the

712
00:32:58,510 --> 00:32:56,130
product and the other one that you

713
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:58,520
brought up the third red flag is the

714
00:33:03,230 --> 00:33:01,440
falling back on conspiracy theory you

715
00:33:04,790 --> 00:33:03,240
know the doctors don't want you to know

716
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:04,800
about this because they can't make any

717
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:06,510
money the government is hiding this from

718
00:33:10,850 --> 00:33:09,450
you et cetera et cetera mmm yeah yeah

719
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:10,860
and you see those things all the time

720
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:12,510
you really do have anything you've been

721
00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:14,190
to enough mine body a lot of festivals

722
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:16,470
and solve I to see that you just this is

723
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:18,890
just the theme of every one of them and

724
00:33:23,180 --> 00:33:21,090
when you see it and it's that they're

725
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:23,190
not talking about these things for very

726
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:24,810
serious ailments when they're talking

727
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:28,650
about relatively harmless things you

728
00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:30,720
know things are goes self limiting

729
00:33:33,620 --> 00:33:32,070
conditions that there's going to go

730
00:33:35,570 --> 00:33:33,630
where by themselves and you could easily

731
00:33:37,460 --> 00:33:35,580
think why it would be okay to give the

732
00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:37,470
patch but when you do give to pass you

733
00:33:41,090 --> 00:33:38,520
end up in a position where a guy is

734
00:33:43,850 --> 00:33:41,100
saying if you have throat cancer gargle

735
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:43,860
a corrosive salv and that will cure your

736
00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:44,970
throat can see that's it just

737
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:47,340
phenomenally dangerous yeah yeah you're

738
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:49,890
absolutely right but mine fortune

739
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:51,390
because tom was willing to go along and

740
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:53,130
actually sort of sit through and be

741
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:55,140
there the whole day and also quite

742
00:33:58,700 --> 00:33:57,120
importantly he wasn't there to disrupt

743
00:34:01,610 --> 00:33:58,710
he wasn't there to challenge he wasn't

744
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:01,620
there to shout and rave and yell and be

745
00:34:05,330 --> 00:34:03,330
that kind of skeptic because if he was

746
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:05,340
doing that then immediately hit have

747
00:34:08,690 --> 00:34:07,050
been kicked out and we wouldn't be said

748
00:34:09,980 --> 00:34:08,700
we wouldn't be able to see what actually

749
00:34:11,720 --> 00:34:09,990
said at these things I think it's so

750
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:11,730
important to know what claims are being

751
00:34:14,990 --> 00:34:13,500
made and how these claims being made

752
00:34:15,810 --> 00:34:15,000
what evidence has been brought forward

753
00:34:19,410 --> 00:34:15,820
because that makes us

754
00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:19,420
much better at counteracting it because

755
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:21,430
tom was that I'm sorry I'm just about to

756
00:34:26,070 --> 00:34:23,770
say that's a very very very good point

757
00:34:28,020 --> 00:34:26,080
you bring up because many times people

758
00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:28,030
would like us to go into these places

759
00:34:33,540 --> 00:34:30,220
like a mind body spirit mind body wallet

760
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:33,550
or something like this and somehow more

761
00:34:37,020 --> 00:34:35,200
must be like a Christ figure and turn

762
00:34:39,090 --> 00:34:37,030
the tables on the money changes you know

763
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:39,100
and banish them and conquer them

764
00:34:43,470 --> 00:34:41,110
instantly it just doesn't work like that

765
00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:43,480
it's it's frustrating at times but the

766
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:46,060
best approach is to really give these

767
00:34:49,890 --> 00:34:47,890
people enough rope and I think that

768
00:34:52,890 --> 00:34:49,900
really is it bears out to be the most

769
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:52,900
productive thing you can do yeah I

770
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:54,970
completely agree I mean nothing kind of

771
00:34:59,160 --> 00:34:57,490
saddens me more and I'll caveat that

772
00:35:00,930 --> 00:34:59,170
because for one thing we need a

773
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,940
plurality of approaches and skepticism

774
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:02,640
you know there's no one-size-fits-all

775
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:05,760
but it does frustrate me when I see

776
00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:09,250
skeptics who are doing that kind of big

777
00:35:13,830 --> 00:35:11,950
grandiose shouting in your fears telling

778
00:35:16,350 --> 00:35:13,840
people they're wrong or tell turning the

779
00:35:17,820 --> 00:35:16,360
metaphorical tables / approach because

780
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:17,830
it always feels to me that the only

781
00:35:21,660 --> 00:35:19,930
person you're reaching is yourself when

782
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:21,670
you do that did that's a in my opinion

783
00:35:25,590 --> 00:35:23,710
of it is that the the person who feels

784
00:35:27,540 --> 00:35:25,600
best about that entire interaction is

785
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:27,550
you and not the person you're talking to

786
00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:28,930
not even really some of the people

787
00:35:32,430 --> 00:35:31,030
around you who might think well that

788
00:35:33,780 --> 00:35:32,440
person might have been right but wasn't

789
00:35:36,090 --> 00:35:33,790
he's so aggressive and nasty and

790
00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:36,100
horrible so you know you kind of you win

791
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:37,780
the battle and lose the war in a way I

792
00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:39,490
think it's really really important that

793
00:35:42,270 --> 00:35:40,990
we come across as nice people I mean we

794
00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:42,280
are there's so many of us who were those

795
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:44,830
people and so why not let that shine

796
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:46,330
through I think while we're out while

797
00:35:50,970 --> 00:35:48,160
we're also spreading good information

798
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:50,980
well exact well we hope so so this is

799
00:35:56,820 --> 00:35:53,920
exactly the right sort of option that

800
00:35:58,350 --> 00:35:56,830
Tom took on the day yeah absolutely and

801
00:36:01,860 --> 00:35:58,360
because he was there and he knows that

802
00:36:03,150 --> 00:36:01,870
other people who were there to find the

803
00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:03,160
information out because they wanted to

804
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:04,390
use it for themselves you know the ones

805
00:36:08,010 --> 00:36:06,160
actually follow this information they

806
00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:08,020
were taking photos and filming things on

807
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:09,820
the on the phone so he thought sure that

808
00:36:13,470 --> 00:36:11,770
must be allowed I'll do the same thing

809
00:36:15,810 --> 00:36:13,480
and so he actually managed to get quite

810
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:15,820
a lot of footage of some of the claims

811
00:36:20,490 --> 00:36:18,490
being made and because we've got some

812
00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:20,500
reasonably good media connections with a

813
00:36:23,730 --> 00:36:21,940
good thinking society these days we're

814
00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:23,740
able to actually pass that to a national

815
00:36:27,780 --> 00:36:25,750
newspaper and it ran is the front page

816
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:27,790
story of that national newspaper for

817
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:29,280
that day pointing out that

818
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:30,720
you know not only are these claims being

819
00:36:35,270 --> 00:36:32,130
made but they actually went to a lot of

820
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:35,280
MPs to say you know our politicians

821
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:37,560
Davis said don't you think the public

822
00:36:40,730 --> 00:36:38,910
should be protected from this and we

823
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:40,740
have Trading Standards and we have the

824
00:36:45,110 --> 00:36:42,780
cancer act and we have advertising

825
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:45,120
standards but clearly those aren't

826
00:36:48,980 --> 00:36:47,220
deterrence because these conferences

827
00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:48,990
just seem to keep happening and this is

828
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:50,460
the first time we've seen one of these

829
00:36:55,700 --> 00:36:53,220
big I can cure cancer I can cure

830
00:36:57,410 --> 00:36:55,710
everything conference is happening so

831
00:36:59,300 --> 00:36:57,420
it's great to see that story really

832
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,310
making literally front page news of the

833
00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:01,920
printed broadsheet highlighting the need

834
00:37:05,420 --> 00:37:03,420
for the public to be protected from

835
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:05,430
these incredibly harmful things because

836
00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:07,710
this isn't about tramping on freedom of

837
00:37:12,410 --> 00:37:10,230
speech this is about not people not

838
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:12,420
being allowed to claim to do stuff that

839
00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:13,920
they can't back up you know it's it's

840
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:15,180
making sure that people aren't

841
00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:17,520
hoodwinked even if the person

842
00:37:20,900 --> 00:37:18,780
hoodwinking them doesn't realize that

843
00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:20,910
what they're saying isn't true yeah

844
00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:22,440
absolutely right and we do we have

845
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:24,150
similar laws in this country but we have

846
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:26,610
similar frustrations of course and we

847
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:28,290
keep hopping back to mind/body wallet

848
00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:29,760
but every time I go to back to a

849
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:31,560
mind-body want first of all and see

850
00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:33,450
these claims being made and people being

851
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:36,630
hoodwinked it did there's a part of me I

852
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:38,160
promise you there's a part of me that

853
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:39,930
wants to leap around and yell at people

854
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:43,920
but I I do my best not to do it yeah I'm

855
00:37:46,970 --> 00:37:45,450
exactly the same I mean that's the I got

856
00:37:49,250 --> 00:37:46,980
of mind body spirit vessels relatively

857
00:37:50,780 --> 00:37:49,260
often even the last one I was at the

858
00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:50,790
first two people I spoke to you in the

859
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:52,580
room brought the cancer act immediately

860
00:37:57,830 --> 00:37:55,170
one was selling this weird device that

861
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:57,840
goes on your tap and turns your water

862
00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:00,480
alkaline and what they told me was I

863
00:38:04,220 --> 00:38:02,580
can't say that this what this water will

864
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:04,230
cure cancer because I go to prison for

865
00:38:10,010 --> 00:38:07,650
that but i will say is that this device

866
00:38:11,870 --> 00:38:10,020
turns your water alkaline and we know

867
00:38:15,470 --> 00:38:11,880
for a fact that we can say can't exist

868
00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:15,480
in an alkaline environment yeah so and

869
00:38:19,790 --> 00:38:16,920
then the second person i met there was a

870
00:38:21,050 --> 00:38:19,800
believer in john of god the brazilian

871
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:21,060
faith healer which i thought that was

872
00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:23,010
gone and died like done for I'd never

873
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:25,080
thought I'd meet a John of God for but

874
00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:26,850
yeah she was a follow John of God he was

875
00:38:30,740 --> 00:38:28,260
talking about how you can go up on stage

876
00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:30,750
and he will remove your cancer with his

877
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:32,280
fingers without using it neither but

878
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:34,050
you're describing psychic surgery this

879
00:38:39,620 --> 00:38:36,990
has been debunked for 30 years debug

880
00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:39,630
before I was born essentially him so

881
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:41,430
it's terrible so these kind of claims

882
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:42,530
are just

883
00:38:45,970 --> 00:38:44,630
they're really they really are well I

884
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:45,980
was right it was so great to see this

885
00:38:50,650 --> 00:38:48,050
front page of national newspaper good

886
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:50,660
work absolutely and that the more media

887
00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:52,130
attention we can bring to these things

888
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:53,390
the better and that's what we try to do

889
00:38:58,270 --> 00:38:55,490
in this country as well just about John

890
00:39:01,000 --> 00:38:58,280
of God I think some of what he does also

891
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:01,010
and I've seen this on online sadly on on

892
00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:03,050
video says he will actually cut people

893
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:05,060
believe it or not he will actually get a

894
00:39:10,930 --> 00:39:07,010
knife and cut people it's it's just

895
00:39:13,870 --> 00:39:10,940
disgusting yeah well these people is

896
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:13,880
very there are some people out there who

897
00:39:17,290 --> 00:39:15,890
really do believe what they're doing and

898
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:17,300
there are others who you have to

899
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:19,010
strongly question what they believe it

900
00:39:23,230 --> 00:39:21,770
or not and if so if you were to ask me

901
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:23,240
for my personal opinion I'd be leaning

902
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:24,770
in the latter camp that John of God he'd

903
00:39:29,590 --> 00:39:28,130
be to be able to for so long do psychic

904
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:29,600
surgery when it's been so

905
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:31,520
comprehensively and thoroughly shown to

906
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:36,410
be sham he has is it's astonishing that

907
00:39:39,130 --> 00:39:37,760
people would be happy to do that you

908
00:39:40,930 --> 00:39:39,140
know and this is one of the things that

909
00:39:43,090 --> 00:39:40,940
often comes up when you find when you

910
00:39:45,070 --> 00:39:43,100
talk to people about this kind of thing

911
00:39:46,780 --> 00:39:45,080
about these claims because of how do

912
00:39:48,850 --> 00:39:46,790
people sleep at night knowing that

913
00:39:52,060 --> 00:39:48,860
they're doing this and I honestly I

914
00:39:54,220 --> 00:39:52,070
honestly wonder how many people who know

915
00:39:57,340 --> 00:39:54,230
that what they're doing is false would

916
00:39:59,890 --> 00:39:57,350
go as far as the life-threatening

917
00:40:02,260 --> 00:39:59,900
conditions because if I was going to to

918
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:02,270
lie about it and lie about my treatment

919
00:40:06,460 --> 00:40:04,250
I probably wouldn't lie about something

920
00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:06,470
so big that I'm going to catch a lot of

921
00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:08,750
attention and I also wouldn't want to

922
00:40:13,050 --> 00:40:10,670
lie to people who are going to be a

923
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:13,060
customer and then potentially die yeah

924
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:15,200
that's just bad economics because it

925
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:16,310
means they can't come back and buy it

926
00:40:20,830 --> 00:40:18,530
again I think yeah yes I was like

927
00:40:24,070 --> 00:40:20,840
surgery we we know I've is done in the

928
00:40:26,650 --> 00:40:24,080
Philippines and James Randi is written

929
00:40:28,930 --> 00:40:26,660
about this people will go there and in

930
00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:28,940
desperation they're dying anyway sadly

931
00:40:32,770 --> 00:40:31,400
and they'll leave the Philippines

932
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:32,780
thinking something's happened they'll go

933
00:40:38,110 --> 00:40:35,330
home and die anyway but yes there are

934
00:40:39,310 --> 00:40:38,120
people out there we have to face the

935
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:39,320
facts there are people out there who

936
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:42,170
will just do it because they can and

937
00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:45,110
they usually get away with it mm that's

938
00:40:49,090 --> 00:40:46,820
true it's true that's why it's really

939
00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:49,100
really important that we're we're doing

940
00:40:54,539 --> 00:40:52,150
what we can and and i think the

941
00:40:56,130 --> 00:40:54,549
best approach is is a a plurality of

942
00:40:58,049 --> 00:40:56,140
approaches I mean yes you can be there

943
00:40:59,099 --> 00:40:58,059
and recorded to cover but I think it's

944
00:41:00,420 --> 00:40:59,109
really important to have the other

945
00:41:02,279 --> 00:41:00,430
ground work together to have the

946
00:41:05,370 --> 00:41:02,289
evidence that this stuff doesn't work to

947
00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:05,380
have conversations with the media so

948
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:07,240
speak to newspapers or speak to just

949
00:41:10,049 --> 00:41:08,770
people forget these days you can phone

950
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:10,059
up a journalist you can just look

951
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:11,650
through a newspaper looking through a

952
00:41:15,539 --> 00:41:13,930
new papers website to find a journalist

953
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:15,549
who seems to cover the kind of stories

954
00:41:19,829 --> 00:41:18,609
that you that you you like that seems to

955
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:19,839
cover them from the right angle for

956
00:41:23,490 --> 00:41:21,520
these kind of alternative health stories

957
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:23,500
or health dori generally and you can

958
00:41:26,670 --> 00:41:25,420
just phone them up and say there's this

959
00:41:28,620 --> 00:41:26,680
conference happening in bright and we're

960
00:41:30,269 --> 00:41:28,630
going to have a man there do you want

961
00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:30,279
this information can I talk you through

962
00:41:33,539 --> 00:41:32,230
this story yeah and you'd be surprised

963
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:33,549
how far you get I mean there's actually

964
00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:35,710
another conference happening last

965
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:38,470
weekend which again was run by the the

966
00:41:43,470 --> 00:41:41,170
people behind the Genesis to church so

967
00:41:45,089 --> 00:41:43,480
some of the higher people from Jim

968
00:41:46,740 --> 00:41:45,099
humbles organization were going to be

969
00:41:48,089 --> 00:41:46,750
there including you know many of the

970
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:48,099
people who are making the most kind of

971
00:41:52,740 --> 00:41:51,130
outrageous claims and one of the things

972
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:52,750
that we were quite successfully well

973
00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:54,010
working with a number of different

974
00:41:58,589 --> 00:41:56,440
groups it was a tactic that we tried

975
00:42:01,049 --> 00:41:58,599
with the spirit of Health Conference too

976
00:42:02,549 --> 00:42:01,059
so what we do is we found out from their

977
00:42:03,630 --> 00:42:02,559
air information we signed up we got

978
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:03,640
their information from them we found out

979
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:04,960
whether venue was and then we called the

980
00:42:08,789 --> 00:42:06,910
venue people we were working with called

981
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:08,799
the venue and said do you know what's

982
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:10,000
going to be said there do you know who's

983
00:42:12,750 --> 00:42:11,410
speaking and what's behind it and you

984
00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:12,760
know what miracle mineral solution is

985
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:14,529
and how it's dangerous and the venue

986
00:42:18,269 --> 00:42:16,270
cancelled on them so they had to move to

987
00:42:20,849 --> 00:42:18,279
another place and another place and in

988
00:42:22,319 --> 00:42:20,859
the end when tom went what he had to do

989
00:42:24,569 --> 00:42:22,329
was turn up at a train station at a

990
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:24,579
certain time and they would direct him

991
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:26,680
to the venue from there so you didn't

992
00:42:30,510 --> 00:42:27,910
even know where he was going it was

993
00:42:33,630 --> 00:42:30,520
totally cloak and dagger in a way to

994
00:42:35,490 --> 00:42:33,640
kind of evade exactly the kind of

995
00:42:36,779 --> 00:42:35,500
actions he will be taking so there was

996
00:42:39,420 --> 00:42:36,789
another conference this weekend what

997
00:42:40,769 --> 00:42:39,430
weekend just gone from the Genesis to

998
00:42:42,690 --> 00:42:40,779
church which did exactly the same thing

999
00:42:44,190 --> 00:42:42,700
we looked we worked with people who've

1000
00:42:45,359 --> 00:42:44,200
been trying for some time to figure out

1001
00:42:46,410 --> 00:42:45,369
exactly where it was and they were

1002
00:42:47,940 --> 00:42:46,420
having none of it they once saying

1003
00:42:50,220 --> 00:42:47,950
anything about where it was probably but

1004
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:50,230
I was going to be but I was able to call

1005
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:52,240
a local press and get the local price to

1006
00:42:55,319 --> 00:42:53,890
cover it was front-page news of the the

1007
00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:55,329
local paper in the town where this thing

1008
00:42:58,109 --> 00:42:56,710
was going to be pointing out how

1009
00:43:00,210 --> 00:42:58,119
dangerous was I think it ran three or

1010
00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:00,220
four times in a week in the local paper

1011
00:43:03,779 --> 00:43:02,230
which really highlighted it and because

1012
00:43:05,490 --> 00:43:03,789
we had this front page story in The

1013
00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:05,500
Telegraph with MPs

1014
00:43:09,420 --> 00:43:07,300
less calling for some action to be taken

1015
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:09,430
and maybe police involvement we're able

1016
00:43:14,190 --> 00:43:11,770
to use that story to counteract this

1017
00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:14,200
conference and say to trading standards

1018
00:43:18,060 --> 00:43:16,390
in authorities here is the front page of

1019
00:43:19,710 --> 00:43:18,070
a national newspaper saying that people

1020
00:43:21,180 --> 00:43:19,720
should be protected here's your chance

1021
00:43:22,620 --> 00:43:21,190
to protect you know about this one ahead

1022
00:43:24,750 --> 00:43:22,630
of time you know there's gonna be

1023
00:43:26,310 --> 00:43:24,760
dangerous and today right at the

1024
00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:26,320
authorities stepped in I mean they

1025
00:43:29,580 --> 00:43:28,150
actually went along they turned up at

1026
00:43:31,110 --> 00:43:29,590
the train station whether everybody was

1027
00:43:33,020 --> 00:43:31,120
meeting they talk to people there they

1028
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:33,030
followed them to the premises where the

1029
00:43:36,990 --> 00:43:35,200
conference was taking place and then

1030
00:43:39,150 --> 00:43:37,000
they have gained entry to the premises

1031
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:39,160
with some police and really give them a

1032
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:41,170
good talking-to and then they're now

1033
00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:42,640
going to be sold and it's just this kind

1034
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:44,440
of pressure makes it very very hard for

1035
00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:46,930
people to continue selling things that

1036
00:43:50,970 --> 00:43:49,060
are going to result in people's you know

1037
00:43:52,110 --> 00:43:50,980
certainly illnesses if not deaths you

1038
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:52,120
know this is the kind of stuff I think

1039
00:43:55,890 --> 00:43:53,680
we we need to be doing and it's that

1040
00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:55,900
multifaceted approach of talking to the

1041
00:43:59,850 --> 00:43:57,220
media talking to the regulator's

1042
00:44:01,740 --> 00:43:59,860
contacting a local MP talking to the

1043
00:44:03,810 --> 00:44:01,750
venues and trying to do this all in one

1044
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:03,820
coordinated way and you really can

1045
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:06,370
affect the their ability to put these

1046
00:44:10,590 --> 00:44:08,170
conferences on I think you've given me

1047
00:44:12,060 --> 00:44:10,600
fresh hope and fresh inspiration for

1048
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:12,070
tackling mind/body wallet in this

1049
00:44:16,890 --> 00:44:13,810
country Marsh but more about that in the

1050
00:44:19,470 --> 00:44:16,900
coming months I think the coming months

1051
00:44:22,740 --> 00:44:19,480
now and what else is going on the good

1052
00:44:23,970 --> 00:44:22,750
thinking society well we're involved in

1053
00:44:26,130 --> 00:44:23,980
lots and lots of things to be honest

1054
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,140
it's been quite an exciting couple of

1055
00:44:30,450 --> 00:44:28,000
months lately with us you know we still

1056
00:44:32,510 --> 00:44:30,460
got our big homeopathy campaign which is

1057
00:44:36,750 --> 00:44:32,520
starting to bear fruit so I think

1058
00:44:38,940 --> 00:44:36,760
listeners may well know about the the

1059
00:44:41,370 --> 00:44:38,950
fact that homeopathy is supplied on the

1060
00:44:43,260 --> 00:44:41,380
NHS with NHS money which is a major

1061
00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:43,270
major thing and a major problem for us

1062
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:45,160
but through my research I managed to

1063
00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:46,450
find out that there was only about

1064
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:49,120
fifteen percent of the country actually

1065
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:51,280
funds homeopathy and so we've been

1066
00:44:55,050 --> 00:44:53,290
challenging those those places one by

1067
00:44:56,670 --> 00:44:55,060
one and liveable was kind of our first

1068
00:44:58,140 --> 00:44:56,680
big challenge and we were able to bring

1069
00:45:00,060 --> 00:44:58,150
a legal case against them because we

1070
00:45:02,010 --> 00:45:00,070
felt that the decision they made to

1071
00:45:04,020 --> 00:45:02,020
continue funding was unlawful that

1072
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:04,030
procedure did not follow the law and

1073
00:45:08,070 --> 00:45:05,920
they reverse their decision now they're

1074
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:08,080
going back to consultation and so the

1075
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:09,280
latest in that is that we're involved

1076
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:10,930
that consultation so hopefully we can

1077
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:12,490
make sure that the questions that have

1078
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:13,690
been asked in the way that they're

1079
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:15,520
talking to people is a way that's

1080
00:45:17,780 --> 00:45:17,110
conducive to getting good evidence back

1081
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:17,790
and not just

1082
00:45:23,570 --> 00:45:20,610
of a huge wide variety of it work to me

1083
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:23,580
stories but on top of that once we have

1084
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:24,810
this kind of local decision we spend

1085
00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:26,370
started writing to other parts of the

1086
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:29,310
country that's still fun homeopathy and

1087
00:45:32,330 --> 00:45:31,290
what we've heard back from Bristol which

1088
00:45:34,670 --> 00:45:32,340
is where one of the few remaining

1089
00:45:36,350 --> 00:45:34,680
homeopathic hospitals were still in

1090
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:36,360
existence that we heard that that

1091
00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:37,710
hospital is shutting down but they're

1092
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:39,390
not going to supply homeopathic products

1093
00:45:43,010 --> 00:45:41,280
from that hospital anymore and given up

1094
00:45:46,430 --> 00:45:43,020
a hospital is getting about 300,000

1095
00:45:48,860 --> 00:45:46,440
pounds ear of taxpayer money to dispense

1096
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:48,870
sugar pills to the sick that's that's a

1097
00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:52,730
pretty good result it does mean that the

1098
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:55,560
cluster of local authorities around

1099
00:45:58,790 --> 00:45:57,330
there that were using the hospital for

1100
00:46:00,140 --> 00:45:58,800
their homeopathy it doesn't mean that

1101
00:46:02,180 --> 00:46:00,150
they're not going to fund homeopathy

1102
00:46:03,380 --> 00:46:02,190
anymore it doesn t not for certain but

1103
00:46:05,150 --> 00:46:03,390
what it means is they're all going to

1104
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:05,160
review it now and say well are we going

1105
00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:07,140
to are we going to fund this or not but

1106
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:09,000
that's Gregg's it means that we can

1107
00:46:12,620 --> 00:46:11,130
direct them to the best procedures for

1108
00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:12,630
reviewing this kind of stuff and there's

1109
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:14,040
already things in place that show you

1110
00:46:17,870 --> 00:46:15,900
how best to do it and hopefully they

1111
00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:17,880
will take this opportunity to stop

1112
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:18,780
funding home you ought to be all

1113
00:46:22,430 --> 00:46:20,850
together in those areas I think it

1114
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:22,440
really just is it's indefensible to be

1115
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:24,330
spending money on this which doesn't

1116
00:46:26,990 --> 00:46:25,440
work what we know there's plenty of

1117
00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:27,000
other things that do work where that

1118
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:28,590
money could be spent because we don't

1119
00:46:31,790 --> 00:46:29,940
have an infinite amount of money on our

1120
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:31,800
national health service you have to put

1121
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,530
the money where the best chance of other

1122
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:37,200
benefit absolutely right i think the

1123
00:46:39,770 --> 00:46:38,610
lessons being learned around the world

1124
00:46:41,590 --> 00:46:39,780
there's a story just in Australia

1125
00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:41,600
written just the other day about a

1126
00:46:45,770 --> 00:46:43,800
pharmacist is throwing away the

1127
00:46:48,860 --> 00:46:45,780
homeopathy off his shelves putting it in

1128
00:46:51,170 --> 00:46:48,870
the bin and it's it really is bit by bit

1129
00:46:52,850 --> 00:46:51,180
we've had court victories in this

1130
00:46:54,740 --> 00:46:52,860
country against the homeopathic

1131
00:46:58,580 --> 00:46:54,750
organizations making outrageous claims

1132
00:47:00,830 --> 00:46:58,590
and people in general I would hope not

1133
00:47:03,230 --> 00:47:00,840
even interested in it or stopping the

1134
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:03,240
believe in it or growing out of it so to

1135
00:47:07,810 --> 00:47:05,760
speak I might be being optimistic but I

1136
00:47:10,190 --> 00:47:07,820
really think the things are changing

1137
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:10,200
yeah I think it feels that way I mean

1138
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:11,970
we've also got in America the FDA years

1139
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:13,650
now having a very very good look at

1140
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:14,690
whether they're gonna start regulating

1141
00:47:18,740 --> 00:47:17,010
homeopathy and the regulation of

1142
00:47:20,180 --> 00:47:18,750
homeopathy by the FDA would basically be

1143
00:47:21,830 --> 00:47:20,190
the removal of homeopathy because

1144
00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:21,840
there's no way it could pass the

1145
00:47:26,060 --> 00:47:23,910
regulatory standards and I know some

1146
00:47:28,460 --> 00:47:26,070
great work being done there I wonder

1147
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,470
whether this is kind of a cool

1148
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:30,240
zeitgeist where everyone's kind of start

1149
00:47:35,330 --> 00:47:32,160
to realize this is nonsense or whether

1150
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:35,340
they've just kind of the the purveyors

1151
00:47:39,650 --> 00:47:37,170
of homeopathy have just kind of outlived

1152
00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:39,660
their welcome essentially um they've

1153
00:47:46,070 --> 00:47:42,630
burnt off all their their goodwill by

1154
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:46,080
just repeatedly talking about conditions

1155
00:47:50,060 --> 00:47:48,060
they can't possibly help with and and

1156
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:50,070
you know going beyond the pale stepping

1157
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:51,810
outside of the limitations because how I

1158
00:47:55,580 --> 00:47:53,130
normally talk about is to say if

1159
00:47:57,830 --> 00:47:55,590
homeopathy if holy perhaps only ever

1160
00:47:59,839 --> 00:47:57,840
said this is good for when you've got a

1161
00:48:01,580 --> 00:47:59,849
headache or when you've got a cold you

1162
00:48:03,020 --> 00:48:01,590
know things that are going to go away by

1163
00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:03,030
themselves you can take a painkiller for

1164
00:48:05,540 --> 00:48:04,560
headaches sometimes it's effective it's

1165
00:48:07,190 --> 00:48:05,550
not always a hundred percent effective

1166
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:07,200
with it with a paracetamol if you've got

1167
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:08,640
a mild headache maybe you take

1168
00:48:12,530 --> 00:48:11,010
homeopathy maybe the placebo convinces

1169
00:48:14,540 --> 00:48:12,540
you if you feel okay about the amount of

1170
00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:14,550
pain you're still in eventually is going

1171
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:16,680
to go away if they stayed there it

1172
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:17,640
wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

1173
00:48:22,010 --> 00:48:19,530
I wouldn't support it but I find it much

1174
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:22,020
much harder to prioritize it but the

1175
00:48:25,370 --> 00:48:23,910
fact is they start there and they say

1176
00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:25,380
well if it's good for this then it must

1177
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:27,119
be good for all of these other things so

1178
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:29,160
don't go and see a doctor and we saw

1179
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:31,170
recently there was a very very tragic

1180
00:48:35,930 --> 00:48:33,690
case I believe of parents who favored

1181
00:48:37,220 --> 00:48:35,940
homeopathy instead of legitimate

1182
00:48:39,079 --> 00:48:37,230
medicine when their child had an ear

1183
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:39,089
infection just simple ear infection and

1184
00:48:43,099 --> 00:48:41,280
then child actually end up dying from an

1185
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:43,109
infection because they were left

1186
00:48:49,130 --> 00:48:46,530
untreated and yes it's just these cases

1187
00:48:50,839 --> 00:48:49,140
aren't rare and I think every one of

1188
00:48:53,839 --> 00:48:50,849
them is a tragedy and I think maybe that

1189
00:48:56,030 --> 00:48:53,849
the regulators are starting to spot

1190
00:48:57,980 --> 00:48:56,040
these things are a hugely important and

1191
00:48:59,839 --> 00:48:57,990
the public is starting to to realize it

1192
00:49:02,120 --> 00:48:59,849
too I think it seems that more and more

1193
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:02,130
the public know what homeopathy is which

1194
00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:05,010
is the biggest battle i think when i

1195
00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:07,020
started in skepticism maybe six six six

1196
00:49:10,490 --> 00:49:08,760
or seven years ago when you talk to the

1197
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:10,500
public about homeopathy people didn't

1198
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:12,240
really know much about it whereas it

1199
00:49:16,099 --> 00:49:13,680
feels now like a lot more people know

1200
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:16,109
that it's about diluting things it's

1201
00:49:22,550 --> 00:49:18,450
about like cures like everyone seems to

1202
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:22,560
have a homeopathy joke these days and i

1203
00:49:26,210 --> 00:49:24,570
really think that's it that's the water

1204
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:26,220
that's a great way of removing the

1205
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:28,410
accidental legitimacy of homeopathy you

1206
00:49:33,020 --> 00:49:30,810
know could obviously we have done a few

1207
00:49:35,210 --> 00:49:33,030
different projects that have resulted an

1208
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:35,220
awful lot of response from from from

1209
00:49:40,070 --> 00:49:37,290
people who are talking about homeopathy

1210
00:49:41,580 --> 00:49:40,080
so when we did the last year and even

1211
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:41,590
this year we've been doing homeopathy

1212
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:44,110
n this week we actually bought the

1213
00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:46,450
website homeopathy Awareness Week org

1214
00:49:50,130 --> 00:49:48,460
which was available and we put up a

1215
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:50,140
genuine site about promoting awareness

1216
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:51,910
of homeopathy awareness that it's

1217
00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:53,650
basically idea that the more you dilute

1218
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:55,960
something the the stronger guess that's

1219
00:50:00,540 --> 00:49:58,480
a terrible completely wrong idea yeah

1220
00:50:02,550 --> 00:50:00,550
you know awareness of the fact that

1221
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:02,560
governments waste money on this that pit

1222
00:50:05,340 --> 00:50:03,760
that the public waste money on this

1223
00:50:07,110 --> 00:50:05,350
though but it's been comprehensively

1224
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:07,120
sure not to work so we put all that kind

1225
00:50:10,290 --> 00:50:08,710
of information up and it was actually

1226
00:50:12,990 --> 00:50:10,300
been it's just at the end of homeopathy

1227
00:50:15,330 --> 00:50:13,000
awareness week now and what we always

1228
00:50:17,220 --> 00:50:15,340
find is that we share that website and

1229
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:17,230
we get hundreds of people got coming

1230
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:18,160
back and saying shouldn't it be

1231
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:21,010
awareness second on nano second and yet

1232
00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:22,720
everybody's saying that we shouldn't do

1233
00:50:25,710 --> 00:50:23,950
why do we need a full weeks really that

1234
00:50:30,030 --> 00:50:25,720
the lesser where I am the more effective

1235
00:50:32,970 --> 00:50:30,040
homeopathy is and you you are right

1236
00:50:35,490 --> 00:50:32,980
education is very important because when

1237
00:50:38,370 --> 00:50:35,500
people get a good understanding of what

1238
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,380
it supposedly does or how it should work

1239
00:50:42,930 --> 00:50:40,960
or the way it's put together a lot of

1240
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:42,940
people can't believe it and I think

1241
00:50:46,350 --> 00:50:44,770
that's a very good thing I really what's

1242
00:50:48,330 --> 00:50:46,360
what's the saying that the worst thing

1243
00:50:50,210 --> 00:50:48,340
that can happen to homeopathy is people

1244
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:50,220
actually find out where it really is

1245
00:50:55,110 --> 00:50:53,200
yeah I really do you think I honestly

1246
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:55,120
think awareness of homeopathy is the

1247
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:57,490
single biggest threat to homeopathy is

1248
00:51:02,130 --> 00:50:59,680
just give them the opportunity to

1249
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:02,140
actually describe what it is you two

1250
00:51:07,140 --> 00:51:04,090
don't miss characterize it and don't

1251
00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:07,150
don't denigrate it just describe it and

1252
00:51:10,380 --> 00:51:09,190
that's enough usually to make people

1253
00:51:12,570 --> 00:51:10,390
realize that this is complete nonsense

1254
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:12,580
so I honestly think I hold me off of the

1255
00:51:17,310 --> 00:51:14,400
awareness is a very very good thing and

1256
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:17,320
it's also why we need again going back

1257
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:18,910
to this kind of plurality of approaches

1258
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:21,450
we need not just people who are from a

1259
00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:23,410
science background in a research

1260
00:51:27,420 --> 00:51:25,030
background but we need people who can

1261
00:51:28,620 --> 00:51:27,430
convey these messages to the public and

1262
00:51:31,110 --> 00:51:28,630
take them all and that's why we need

1263
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:31,120
things like comedians and musicians and

1264
00:51:34,740 --> 00:51:33,520
communicators and journalists to all be

1265
00:51:37,290 --> 00:51:34,750
involved in spreading this information

1266
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:37,300
because those are in many ways the

1267
00:51:41,790 --> 00:51:39,040
experts are getting messages out there

1268
00:51:44,010 --> 00:51:41,800
and you know and putting messages out

1269
00:51:46,350 --> 00:51:44,020
there it is simple understandable format

1270
00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:46,360
and i honestly think that's one of the

1271
00:51:51,090 --> 00:51:49,300
big big things that's affecting people's

1272
00:51:53,580 --> 00:51:51,100
belief in homeopathy is having a huge

1273
00:51:55,890 --> 00:51:53,590
each effect of it march what can i say

1274
00:51:59,460 --> 00:51:55,900
you and the good thinking

1275
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:59,470
doing so much excellent work and the

1276
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:01,359
proof is in the pudding or is it the

1277
00:52:04,140 --> 00:52:02,529
proof is in the eating of the pudding

1278
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:04,150
even if it's a homeopathic pudding I

1279
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:05,950
don't care because you are getting

1280
00:52:08,990 --> 00:52:07,210
results and that's the important thing

1281
00:52:12,450 --> 00:52:09,000
you're educating people you're getting

1282
00:52:15,390 --> 00:52:12,460
headlines it's a fantastic effort you're

1283
00:52:16,890 --> 00:52:15,400
involved with folks the website the

1284
00:52:18,420 --> 00:52:16,900
website no matter where you are in the

1285
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:18,430
world this is worth checking out good

1286
00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:21,910
thinking society org good thinking

1287
00:52:27,150 --> 00:52:24,760
society org and of course you can help

1288
00:52:29,029 --> 00:52:27,160
the good thinking society March how can

1289
00:52:31,529 --> 00:52:29,039
people help the good thinking society

1290
00:52:33,390 --> 00:52:31,539
yes I mean the economy we are a charity

1291
00:52:35,370 --> 00:52:33,400
so this is kind of this is what I do

1292
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,380
full-time and the only reason I think

1293
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:37,119
that were able to to get the results

1294
00:52:41,250 --> 00:52:39,250
that we we get is because we have we are

1295
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:41,260
able to dedicate proper time to this

1296
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:43,210
this is kind of what we do all day to

1297
00:52:46,589 --> 00:52:44,890
really work on this so as such as a

1298
00:52:48,299 --> 00:52:46,599
charity we really need people support so

1299
00:52:50,910 --> 00:52:48,309
if you've got a good thinking society

1300
00:52:52,620 --> 00:52:50,920
org there is a nice donate button on the

1301
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:52,630
site that allow you to either make a

1302
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:54,640
one-off donation or to make a recurring

1303
00:52:59,069 --> 00:52:57,010
monthly donation and every little bit of

1304
00:53:00,720 --> 00:52:59,079
this helps really it helps us carry on

1305
00:53:03,089 --> 00:53:00,730
our work it helps us fund new

1306
00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:03,099
investigations it helps us fund the next

1307
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:04,990
legal challenge that we're looking to

1308
00:53:08,519 --> 00:53:06,130
bring and we've got a lot of things in

1309
00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:08,529
the pipeline there and also help us you

1310
00:53:12,750 --> 00:53:10,990
know fund the ongoing existence of the

1311
00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:12,760
charity into the future we'd like to

1312
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:14,049
make this something that really stays

1313
00:53:18,180 --> 00:53:15,970
around and continues to do really good

1314
00:53:20,069 --> 00:53:18,190
work into future so if anybody wants to

1315
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:20,079
kind of support that then yeah good

1316
00:53:25,140 --> 00:53:22,720
thinking sorry dog and got a donut not

1317
00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:25,150
be great and I recommend that you do

1318
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:27,760
that folks because as I say these are

1319
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:29,920
people who were really out there doing

1320
00:53:34,740 --> 00:53:32,250
the hard work and getting the results

1321
00:53:36,359 --> 00:53:34,750
donations to people like the good things

1322
00:53:38,970 --> 00:53:36,369
in society and even if I might say so

1323
00:53:42,299 --> 00:53:38,980
the skeptic zone really do help it's not

1324
00:53:45,690 --> 00:53:42,309
just giving or donating money to feel

1325
00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:45,700
good the money you donate mean something

1326
00:53:50,789 --> 00:53:48,400
and goes a long way Marsh I can't wait

1327
00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:50,799
to catch up with you sometime in the

1328
00:53:54,059 --> 00:53:52,569
future who knows where it'll be I hope

1329
00:53:55,950 --> 00:53:54,069
it'll be in Liverpool actually I've

1330
00:53:58,039 --> 00:53:55,960
always wanted to visit Liverpool but no

1331
00:54:00,180 --> 00:53:58,049
matter where it is I look forward to it

1332
00:54:02,490 --> 00:54:00,190
congratulations on your successes and

1333
00:54:04,589 --> 00:54:02,500
here's to more successes in the future

1334
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:04,599
I'm sure we'll be able to talk again

1335
00:54:06,820 --> 00:54:06,010
soon about the next things that we're

1336
00:54:08,830 --> 00:54:06,830
doing with good think

1337
00:54:09,820 --> 00:54:08,840
do I always like to say as well

1338
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:09,830
congratulations all the work that

1339
00:54:14,460 --> 00:54:11,450
Australian skeptics do you really are

1340
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:14,470
some of the the world leaders in

1341
00:54:17,980 --> 00:54:16,370
inspiring that the kind of work that

1342
00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,990
we're doing in another kind of work too

1343
00:54:36,190 --> 00:54:19,520
so yeah it's always going to catch your

1344
00:54:38,830 --> 00:54:36,200
Bridget thanks Marsh hello on our needle

1345
00:54:41,380 --> 00:54:38,840
on solo scoffs of dip moment when Tyrion

1346
00:54:46,330 --> 00:54:41,390
at low so now to skeptics on for weed to

1347
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:46,340
stop and Katie Schneider moving from RC

1348
00:55:05,140 --> 00:54:49,370
Connor we movie boom skeptics own punt

1349
00:55:10,130 --> 00:55:07,940
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1350
00:55:11,570 --> 00:55:10,140
zone and thank you to Heidi for that

1351
00:55:13,250 --> 00:55:11,580
excellent report and thank you to

1352
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:13,260
Michael Marshall for that interview as

1353
00:55:18,710 --> 00:55:15,330
well well done Michael you're a good

1354
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:18,720
thinking society is doing a good job now

1355
00:55:25,310 --> 00:55:22,530
as I mentioned coming up on the skeptic

1356
00:55:36,750 --> 00:55:25,320
zone next week more about the node jab

1357
00:55:44,310 --> 00:55:42,000
Oh dearie me that's actually taken from

1358
00:55:46,890 --> 00:55:44,320
a video and it really wasn't that many

1359
00:55:48,690 --> 00:55:46,900
people marching ah well they gave it a

1360
00:55:51,450 --> 00:55:48,700
go it's their freedom in our democracy

1361
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:51,460
to march down the street with their

1362
00:55:56,070 --> 00:55:53,110
message and that's exactly what they did

1363
00:55:57,690 --> 00:55:56,080
and coming up next week I think next

1364
00:55:59,850 --> 00:55:57,700
week or maybe the week after probably

1365
00:56:01,920 --> 00:55:59,860
next week I'm going to be interviewing

1366
00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:01,930
James Randi catching up with my old

1367
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:05,920
friend asking him how retirement going

1368
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:08,290
what he does in his retirement I'm sure

1369
00:56:13,260 --> 00:56:11,110
he's still very busy and we'll find out

1370
00:56:16,980 --> 00:56:13,270
more about the upcoming amazing meeting

1371
00:56:18,540 --> 00:56:16,990
in July in Las Vegas looking forward to

1372
00:56:20,730 --> 00:56:18,550
that I always have a great time at the

1373
00:56:23,340 --> 00:56:20,740
amazing meeting I learn a lot every time

1374
00:56:25,710 --> 00:56:23,350
I go there and I love meeting skeptics

1375
00:56:28,650 --> 00:56:25,720
own fans and everybody it really is a

1376
00:56:30,150 --> 00:56:28,660
great event this year will be

1377
00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:30,160
particularly special I think because

1378
00:56:35,970 --> 00:56:33,310
it's a special recognition of the life

1379
00:56:37,290 --> 00:56:35,980
and works of James Randi and if you are

1380
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:37,300
coming to the amazing meeting and you

1381
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:39,850
see me pop over and say hello I'd love

1382
00:56:44,730 --> 00:56:42,130
to say hello to you and if you're in

1383
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:44,740
Sydney I might see you in a week or two

1384
00:56:49,710 --> 00:56:47,770
at Sydney skeptics in the pub first

1385
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:49,720
thursday of every month at the crown

1386
00:56:55,220 --> 00:56:52,090
hotel the corner of Goulburn elizabeth

1387
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:55,230
streets in the city 6 p.m. meet upstairs

1388
00:57:00,240 --> 00:56:58,000
but for this week this is Richard

1389
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:00,250
Saunders signing off from Sydney

1390
00:57:08,670 --> 00:57:06,160
Australia you've been listening to the

1391
00:57:12,510 --> 00:57:08,680
skeptics own podcast visit our website

1392
00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:12,520
at wwc a petting zoo TV for contacts and

1393
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:15,790
archive of all episodes since 2008 and

1394
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:18,970
our online store please support the

1395
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:21,010
skeptic zone by following us on twitter

1396
00:57:27,870 --> 00:57:24,370
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1397
00:57:29,370 --> 00:57:27,880
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1398
00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:29,380
also show your support by subscribing

1399
00:57:36,270 --> 00:57:33,220
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1400
00:57:37,860 --> 00:57:36,280
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1401
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:37,870
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1402
00:57:42,690 --> 00:57:40,330
expressed on the skeptic zone and not